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RECAP

As a follow-up to his three-part blog series, CFWLA friend, Robert Covolo sits down for a conversation with Matthew Kaemingk & Cory B. Wilson, authors of the new book Work and Worship: Reconnecting Our Labor and Liturgy. In this episode, they discuss how and why the book came together, the intersection of work + worship, what we can learn from the Old Testament and the early church on the relationship between work + worship, and how to best respond in our lives today.

Matthew Kaemingk (Ph.D.) is associate dean and assistant professor of Christian Ethics at Fuller Theological Seminary. Matthew also serves as a fellow at the Center for Public Justice and a scholar-in-residence at the De Pree Center for Christian Leadership.

Cory B. Wilson (Ph.D.) is Jake and Betsy Tuls Associate Professor of Missiology and Missional Ministry and directs the Institute for Global Church Planting and Renewal at Calvin Theological Seminary in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Robert Covolo is a Cultural Theologian and Author of Fashion Theology. He is a regular contributor and friend to us here at the Center for Faith + Work Los Angeles.

QUOTABLE

On The Symmetry Between Work And Sunday Worship: (Matthew Kaemingk; 9:46)

“What we want to see Sunday morning to be is not a moment of worship, but the beginning of a whole week of worship. And Sunday morning is really part of a training ground in God's economy. That on a Sunday morning we learn to live and work by God's patterns, after God's work in the world, so that when we go out into the week, we extend those patterns of grace and beauty in our working lives. So rather than saying Sunday morning as an escape from the world or as an escape from our work, it's just another aspect of what it means to live before the face of God.”

On How Israel's Relationship To Work Can Help Us: (Cory B. Wison; 27:32)

“…So their idolatry made a lot of sense. And when you read through the prophets, and say “Oh, my gosh, I can't believe Israel's going back to those idols again.” You need to stop short of that. And need to actually, bring yourself under the examining light of scripture to say, where are you tempted to buy into the practices of the market that are unjust, that, you know, are unjust.”

On Bringing Our Working Selves to our Worshipping Selves: (Matthew Kaemingk; 50:00)

“Bring your work to God. He will transform, lift it up, and redirect it. He is faithful and throughout scripture, we are encouraged not to come before God empty-handed, but to bring him the beauty and the brokenness that we experience, his yoke is easy, his burden is light. And so it's good news that we can be our full selves and we can bring our work to him.”

LISTEN NOW

TRANSCRIPT

Transcription for the Faith + Work LA Podcast is done by AI software, which will occasionally include typos and other misspellings.

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Robert Covolo: [00:00:03] Hi, my name is Robert Covolo, and on behalf of the Center for Faith and Work Los Angeles, I want to extend a warm welcome to our listeners today. I have with me Matthew Kaemingk and Cory Wilson. Matthew is a professor of Christian ethics at Fuller Seminary and a scholar in residence at the Max Dupree Center for Christian Leadership here in Los Angeles. And Cory Wilson is a professor of psychology and Missional Ministry and directs the Institute for Global Church Planning and Renewal at Calvin Theological Seminary. Matt and Cory have recently released this book, Work and Worship, phenomenal book. If you pay attention to our resources on the Center for Faith and Work Los Angeles website, you'll notice that I've been blogging it. It's been so good. And I thought I just have to have these guys on here, not only because I've been so drawn to this book and think it's a fantastic book for those of us that care about the intersection of faith and work. But also to be full disclosure, a man we are two dear friends. And so this might be a little different podcast. I know you guys have been on the circuit because this book is drawing a lot of attention. But I think those just give me a lot of fun as some friends sitting down and talking a little bit more about the work, work and worship, reconnecting our labor in liturgy. So, Matt and Cory, welcome.

Matthew Kaemingk: [00:01:22] Thanks, it's good to be here with you.

Robert Covolo: [00:01:24] It's good to be here with you, too. I just want to start off with some basic kind of introductory questions for the book. What inspired you guys to write this book? You know, I know some of the back story, but tell our listeners more about the backstory. How do you, how does somebody end up writing a book about the relationship between work and worship and what brought this together?

Matthew Kaemingk: [00:01:46] Well, I think for me, this man. I think one of the big drivers was one of my very first pastoral positions was in New York City with a Redeemer Presbyterian church and their Center for Faith and Work. And so serving as a pastoral intern alongside of professionals and listening to them wrestle with these questions of faith and work really inspired me to begin a long journey of saying, how can the church support workers? How can the church pray for workers, encourage workers, bless workers, and provide spaces where workers can begin carrying their their work experiences to God in prayer and in worship? And then the second thing for me was in Seattle, working with 10 different churches who really wanted to reach out to a burgeoning marketplace in Seattle and had numerous pastors asking, OK, if we care about the working lives of our people, how should that change what we do on Sunday morning? How can we start to be more welcoming and impactful on a Sunday morning for workers who are going to be out in the city of Seattle working at Microsoft, Amazon, Expedia? How do we how do we send them into the workplace with a sense of mission? And and then finally, Cory, you know, my dear co-author, I had Cory come and speak in Seattle one weekend for a retreat that we were having. And Cory and I really started having conversations about how we might develop worship during that weekend for our workers, worship experiences for the workers. And that was, I think, in many ways the beginning for Cory and I talking about these kinds of things since we needed to develop a whole weekend retreat for workers and working with musicians on different prayers and things that, that might help them connect their faith to their their daily work.

Robert Covolo: [00:04:01] Mm hmm. I'm not going to ask both of you to answer for every question because I loved also hearing your side of the story. Like, how did you come into writing this book?

Cory B. Wilson: [00:04:11] Yeah, so, you know, I think I was taken aback when I was in my early twenties, I was a college pastor at an evangelical church and the Central Coast of California, just up the road from you all there and L.A. area. And and, yeah, I learned a lot working with college students and for a couple of years. And then I went on to teach business at the university there at the public university. And one of my first classes, I had an evangelical student in my class at the university on business. And she came to my office one day and she said, Hey, are you a Christian? I said, Yeah, I am. And I said, Well, you know, I really appreciate your class, but aren't you really just here to evangelize people, to bring people to Jesus? And and I remember responding to her and I didn't have a really, I think well formulated response. But basically I tried to say that I care about evangelism. I want people to know Jesus. But I also think Jesus cares a lot about business and how we run our businesses and how we how we live our our faith in our workplace. That includes but goes much further beyond an evangelism. So that story always stick with me in, you know, as I grew up and my understanding of theology a bit more, I understood that. Yeah. That our work, our everyday work is a place in which a primary place in which we demonstrate and live out our worship of God. So that was one story. The other story was growing up again in the evangelical community. We had a high value on missions and we had these things on Sundays once a year called Mission Sunday. And this was the one time of the year that our our church, our liturgy, our non liturgical church became pretty liturgical or more structured. And we usually have a big map of the of the world up and then little dots or pegs the different places in the world where we were, the missionaries we were supporting, we're serving. And so if we were lucky, we would have one of those missionaries on furlough who would preach. And I remember seeing them that really every year going through this routine, that that practice of corporate worship shaped my imagination about what God's mission is and also what. Yeah, who is involved in God's mission. And as I got older and I began to explore these things a little bit more, what began to bother me was, what about my dad and the mechanic, you know, the auto shop teacher at the community college? What about my friend's mom, who was the elementary school principal and then the superintendent? Do they have any role or place in God's mission in the world? And so I began to really ask this question is mission is the mission of God and our participation in that mission only for pastors and missionaries? Or does the everyday life and work of ordinary Christians also intersect with God's mission? And if so, how so? Those early experiences for me really were the impetus for exploring this book and the driver. And then, yeah, as I began to see that the church and then the faith and work movement, we've done a lot to help workers understand that your work matters to God, that the work that you do in culture, making, you know, in small and in big ways contributes to God's mission and kingdom in the world. But what is left off often in those conversations is, well, then, yes, I can serve God and I can worship God in my daily work. But then why does Sunday worship matter?

Cory B. Wilson: [00:07:43] And we've done a lot in the faith and work movement on the former, which is so important and so empowering. We meet so many workers. We're like, oh my gosh, I didn't realize that in my work really mattered to God. Like, this is my my place of service for his kingdom. But then when you ask, well, well, how does that worship from those weekdays connect with the worship on Sundays, most people don't really know how. And so the book really came out of that really existential question that we ourselves had, but also the many workers that we worked with over the years have raised that question for us.

Robert Covolo: [00:08:17] Yeah, I mean, it sounds like both of you has not just been curious, like in a very academic way, but deeply, personally engaged in looking at people's lives, people that you knew. Matt, you were involved in these different initiatives where you were working with people that and Cory, you were as well, involved in teaching business and thinking about your own parents and how were they recognized in the church in kind of a heart for people that this is what they do? Right. I think I heard recently that we spend if we go to church every Sunday, we spend three thousand hours in church. By time, we're sixty five and we spend eighty thousand hours at work. And so if most of our lives are spent doing work, then how does that how does what is what is the what is the what is the role of our faith in. And then how does going to. Church and going to work of to work together, so, yeah, good. Well, I, I want to jump into the book and talk a little bit about the book comes in three parts and the first part of the book, you guys lay out certain core assumptions you have. And I was, I think one of the things that is brilliant that you do is you see a strong symmetry between work and sunday worship. Tell me tell us more about the symmetry or how you see those two actually not being totally disassociated, but actually having certain resonances.

Matthew Kaemingk: [00:09:46] Sure. Well, I think one core theological assumption we make is that worship is not reserved for a single day or a single place, but worship is a way of life. And in fact, God created us to be worshipping beings in all that we do and to glorify him and all that we do. So. We really see life as basically worship, taking two forms, one is worship as adoration and worship as action. So in gathered worship, we adore and praise God actually, and then in, out throughout our week. We adore, we adore and praise and worship God through our live action. And so I think the entire book begins with a basic theological assumption that work and worship are a part of who we are. So I think that's our beginning point. So what we want to see Sunday morning to be is not a moment of worship, but the beginning of a whole week of worship. And Sunday morning is really part of a training ground in God's economy. So that on a Sunday morning we learn to live and work by God's patterns, after God's work in the way that God works in the world, so that when we go out into the week, we extend those patterns of grace and beauty in our working lives. So rather than saying Sunday morning as an escape from the world or as an escape from our work, it's just another aspect of what it means to live before the face of God. I think that's sort of our starting point.

Robert Covolo: [00:11:43] Yeah. And I mean, I'm struck by that because I think oftentimes when we think of Sunday, we think Sabbath, we think rest. We think the opposite of work. So you go to church and to be thinking about work in many ways feels wrong. Like this is my Sabbath. And to even have the mindset of a worker on a Sunday might even feel wrong. But one of the things I was drawn to is you talk about, well, actually in working, you have these certain kind of repetitive patterns and habits that are that then get you into, you know, you kind of rehearse these things. You're using your body, you're using yourself into these patterns and rituals. And then on Sunday, we have these patterns and rituals and there's actually a resonance there that I think is a profound that's a profound thought. And I think that’s something that really hits home, is that there is a symmetry involved in these, too. And just like you're saying that like that these two are deeply connected and you don't go to church and just ignore it. Yeah. Yeah. Can you tell me a little bit more or can you just talk a little bit more about the way in which there are parallels between work and worship Sunday morning and a Monday morning?

Matthew Kaemingk: [00:13:04] Absolutely, well, there's a self-giving-ness, and both aren't there? So, I mean, when you enter into the sanctuary, you are offering your whole body and soul to God in adoration. And then when we go to work. Right, we are offering our whole selves once again, as Paul would say, offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, fully and pleasing to God that that working well is in and of itself a pleasing act to God. And so when the ancient Israelites would bring their first fruits, their best calf, that their prized all and sacrifice that their best grains to God, they have this understanding that God would breathe that sacrifice in through his nostrils and find that pleasing. And so that was one action, right? It was from the field directly to the altar and up to God. It was one movement all united and offering your whole self to God, whether it be through your work at the field or your worship at the altar. And so what we're really getting after in this book is how can we today, in the twenty-first century, develop that kind of seamless understanding of what's happening, this movement from the office into the sanctuary up to God? I think that's one way of thinking about what we're what we're getting after. I mean, there's so many different angles, Cory, that we can go after here. I mean, yeah, maybe you can speak to a different portion.

Cory B. Wilson: [00:14:41] Yeah, well, I mean, one of it is that worship is deeply human, right? We are embodied creatures. We are worshipping creatures. And so there's something deeply innate about within the human person. Right? When you do something, when you accomplish something, you want to show it to someone. You don't want to just hide it. If you, you know, whatever it is you're creating, there's something about it that there is an enjoyment. And that enjoyment is, you know, I think C.S. Lewis talks about in Mere Christianity, but there's a more fullness when you get to share that with someone else. Right? And so deeply, you see this right outside of the Garden of Eden and Genesis 4. There's no commandment for Cain and Abel to make an offering. Right, and one of John Goldingay Old Testament professor, he writes about Genesis for what you see in Genesis is that God is taking this deeply human, innately human impulse to offer our work as worship and giving it form-fullness. And we can look at what was different and what was wrong or what was Abel's sacrifice more acceptable than Cain's.

Cory B. Wilson: [00:15:50] We can delve into that. But just stepping back, the basic human impulse is that we actually are embodied worshipping creatures and we have this impulse to raise that up to God. So why would worship be anything else than that? So what's odd? We are the odd people, right? We moderns, Westerners are the odd people where you come in empty handed. You know, your tithe is automatically withdrawn from your bank account, right, and so it's totally stripped of disembodiment, right. And of our embodiment of our daily work. And so we where we are habituated to come into the sanctuary empty handed to leave these things behind. And then you add to that the practices that often take place even within ourselves or words that we hear or interpret as like, oh, I should leave that behind if I'm really going to honor God in the sanctuary, I got to forget about that and just receive the pure word from God and as a receptacle. Right. And so there are many things that, that we could say on that.

Matthew Kaemingk: [00:16:56] So I mean, I’m a new Dad. Bob, you've been a dad for a while having kids. You see this, this innateness. Whenever a kid goes and draws a picture. Right. The first thing the kid does is bring the picture to his or her parents and says, look what I made, look what I made that or come see this little Lego structure that I built, this innately human thing, that work is profoundly relational and it's worshipful. It's you want to you want to offer it. You want to show it. And so and that leads us to a change that needs to happen when it comes to Sunday morning. If we take this seriously, a change has to happen. And that's what Cory and I are really arguing for, is when you when you receive a promotion at work, when you get promoted at work, when when a new project is finished, it is right and good to bring that to God in worship and to thank God and to say God, I praise you for the goodness of this work. And and so we need to reorient the way that we go to the sanctuary on Sunday and stop saying, OK, I need to leave my work at home. But actually, I need to go on Sunday morning and praise God for it, for the goodness of work well done. And of course, that brings us to the next discussion, which is that work is not always good.

Robert Covolo: [00:18:31] And I was going to say, man, it's not always fun. And some people are losing their jobs during this time or wondering if they're going to have a job next year. Some people look forward to escaping work on Sunday because it's terrible. What would you say to tell our listeners that are not looking forward to work?

Cory B. Wilson: [00:18:49] I'm going to jump in on this one. So here's what I would say. One of the important things is it's really beautiful if you look at scripture in terms of an overarching narrative but also think of scripture and the biblical story in terms of places. Right. So you have the Bible starts off in Eden. Right. And we would say this is a place where we are oriented to understanding who God is and how work you know, and what it means to be human and particularly how work is intended to be a good thing and a part of God's mission. Right. So this is a well-ordered world. Some of the people you're talking to. Right. Or some of the people who are listening to this, are in a place where they're for the first time they're hearing that, oh, my gosh, my work matters to God. They're in this kind of Garden of Eden orientation state. Right. But this biblical story keeps going, right. You have after Genesis. Right. And you have pretty next significant chapter is Exodus, which is work as enslavement. And so some of the people who are listening to this right now are probably trapped in a place where work is not flourishing, work is dehumanizing. They're trapped in structures that they don't like. Right. And so for them, that point of entry is not going back to pretending they're in the Garden of Eden. Part of them is when you come into the sanctuary, it's crying out. Right. One of the things we learn about the workers, the Israelite workers, is that God is one who hears, he hears them crying out from their work oppression.

Cory B. Wilson: [00:20:18] That's the point of entry for them. And so when you come into the sanctuary, it shouldn't just be lifting up your praises in your hallelujahs. It's crying out in anger and grief and sadness. Right. And we can keep going through then, you know, after that you come into the promised land. There are some people who are listening to this. They're in this place. So they're coming into Canaan. They already knew. You know, they've been through some of the hardships, but they're coming into this place and now they're in positions of power or influence and they are so excited. I want to do things differently. I want to be a manager or I want to be a salesperson. I want to be, you know, someone in the healthcare industry who brings flourishing not only to my clients but also to those around me. Right. When you look at when Israel enters into the promised land, they are to take with them this narrative, this mindset, this imagination of, hey, you were enslaved, God delivered you and brought you into this. So now you who were in power, you use that power for life-giving ways?

Cory B. Wilson: [00:21:19] And it actually goes through Deuteronomy and Leviticus will go through a name specifically for the laborer. Right. The widow, the immigrant. Your action, your deployment of power, of influence should be for the well-being, the shalom of those who are particularly marginalized.

Cory B. Wilson: [00:21:39] And here, how you can do it in Deuteronomy and Leviticus goes through and specifies like don't plow to the edge of your field. Leave some for others. Right. When your servant serves up their time with you after seven years, don't send them away empty-handed. So in the way liberally. Right. So what I would say is that bringing this back to your daily work and to worship, the sanctuary is a place we bring the petitions, the praises for the good things from our workplace, the limits into worship, to offer these up. You're lifting up your limit is an act of worship to God. Lifting up your thanks and your praise and adoration is an act of worship to God. Right. Lifting up your petition for wisdom that you would use your power and life-giving ways is an act of worship. So there are many things. But I would just say that as we locate thinking through, you know, we could talk about exile. Right. And Israel's in exile like each one of those actual physical places, the territories which Israel is living in, as we see in the Old Testament narrative, these can all be metaphors or symbols for workers' experiences. And then that can guide in how we explore, how we talk about faith and work and particularly how it intersects with gathered worship is basically the sanctuary hospitable to a range right from Eden all the way to exile workers?

Robert Covolo: [00:23:09] And this is what I loved so much. I felt like one of the strongest parts. I mean, the book's a great book across the board, but the part that really grabbed me was the second kind of movement in your book. You get into Israel and Israel's worship and you've been touching on that, Cory. Just when you read the Old Testament through the lens of work, you just see so many things you didn't realize were there. It's quite shocking, you know, and what you mentioned, you know, Israel's freedom from Egypt and then they had to relearn work that a big part of the holiness codes are in Deuteronomy. And what you do is based on a new understanding of work, which was like, how did I miss this before? It's just beautiful. And then and then you go on and you talk about this whole lot. The songs in the Psalms are just immersed in the Psalms, not only drawing from analogies of God's work, but bringing their own labor and asking God in the midst of both joy and you know. And so you bring all this in there and you even throw the prophets in there and talk about how the prophets are also addressing Israel's work. So so I don't know if I have a question coming out of this than, just like this was the one of the greatest ah has for the book for me was I don't think I can read the Old Testament the same after looking at how closely Israel's worship and Israel's work were deeply connected. And you already talked a little about that. But yeah, I mean, as you and you guys have sat in this for a while, when you think about that, like, how does that change? Yeah, what does that tell us? What does that tell the person that's just sitting there listening to this podcast, maybe they're jogging, or whatever? And they're, you know, they're professional or maybe they're not whatever, but what should they see when they open up the Psalms, what should they see when they think about Israel's relationship to work that could help them?

Matthew Kaemingk: [00:25:06] Yeah. So I think really important is within the ancient Israelite world-view this concept of holiness, had this profound understanding that in order for Israel to be holy. And to honor God, it needed to be holy in the sanctuary and in the marketplace and there needed to be a conversation between these two and both the marketplace, the fields and the sanctuary, all of those activities needed to be engaged in ways that were honor to the sovereignty of God. And so if one starts to get twisted, the other begins to become affected. And that we see that especially in the prophets, when there is injustice and cheating in the marketplace, that starts to twist their worship and it starts to inhibit the integrity and the power of their worship. Likewise, when idolatry makes its way into Israel's worship, it starts to twist their relationship to their workers and to the land, to their wealth and all those sorts of things. And I think for people today, we tend to think that we can live our lives in pieces and we can have sort of our holy Christian life over here on a Sunday morning and that we can have our working life over here on a Monday morning and that holiness spirituality, that is for these aspects of life. But the very story of Israel tells us that the country began to break down as the marketplace and the sanctuary became broken away from one another and began to go their own ways. And both aspects of their life were critical for the flourishing of Israel. And when they go wrong with the injustice or idolatry, they feel farther and farther away from God and the land as poisoned and their work is poisoned and worship is poisoned. And the prophets really kind of tell that that hard story. So I think that's just as relevant today as it was four thousand years ago

Cory B. Wilson: [00:27:32] That was actually I wanted to say this, Matt, we haven't talked about this publicly, but I think there are several points in the book where Matt and I had sustained, like brotherly arguments like wrestling matches. And one of them is actually over the issue of idolatry and the chapter on the prophets. One of my favorite memories was Matt took the first draft on that and he sent it to me. And his word to me throughout the book was be mean, be mean about things. I can say direct things without being mean. But when I was mean to him and Matt dude no, like idolatry, we can't make these people monsters. I don't like it made total sense why you would look to other fertility gods for your sustaining, for us to be a little bit personal here. My wife and I struggled with infertility for a number of years and I remember like doctors not giving us a lot of answers. It wasn't clear. And I you know, in some of my private prayers with God, I get it. You know, I could see why people would sacrifice a chicken right now. Like science is not giving us any answers. Nothing seemed to work. And there's a real reason, like God, if the rain doesn't come, these crops are going to die. And that means the herd is going to die. That may mean the family members are going to get sick. I mean, there is a lot on the line. So their idolatry made a lot of sense. And so when you read through the prophets, I'm like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe Israel's going back to those idols again. You need to stop short of that. I need to actually, you know, bring yourself under the examining light of scripture to say, where are you tempted to buy into the practices of the market that are unjust, that, you know, are unjust. Yeah, that's just the way it is and the industry. So that's what we got to do.

Cory B. Wilson: [00:29:18] Yeah, right. And so this is one of the places where I'm mean, Matt you can jump in, he didn't disagree with me, but we were just how do we do this in a way that's invitational for us and not just looking back on those weird Israelites.

Matthew Kaemingk: [00:29:31] Yeah. So I mean, here's what changed my mind. Here's how Cory changed my mind is really when I started to think about the fragility that we all experience in our careers as human beings, trying to make it in a competitive marketplace. We all feel fragile. Yes, we live and work in one of the most privileged countries in the history of humanity. And yet workers feel profoundly fragile. They feel contingent, they feel at risk. And there in ancient Israel, he farmers were at risk. Right. If the rain doesn't come, I lose everything and. It's very interesting to watch modern workers and what they do with risk, how we turn to alcohol, we turn to anti-anxiety drugs, we turn to spa weekends and vacations, and we work harder. We work ourselves to exhaustion just to get a sense of economic security. And we long for that security and we will turn to anything that can give that to us. And I think when I started to think about it that way, it really helped me empathize with Israel's idolatry. And it also helped me to see that idolatry is not simply a spiritual thing, it's a profoundly economic reality. So when the Israelites were turning to these other gods, it was not just because they were like, you know, I'm tired of Israel's religion. I think I'll try the Philistines' religion. That looks neat. No, it's actually driven by profoundly economic experience of living in a fragile agriculture. And I think similarly when we think about our own spirituality, it's often driven by what's going on in work.

Robert Covolo: [00:31:31] Yes. Which then shows how deeply this is. This is great. I mean, I read through the book, and but you're really drawing on, it's hitting me that you can't really understand idolatry until you understand how closely work and worship are connected in the Old Testament. And I mean idolatry, that's a huge theme in the Bible. That's I mean, that's the first and second commandment, right? So like right off the bat, those are huge. I mean, that's the problem. And yet it's really a problem of trusting God with their work that is really at the core of that. And that's why I've always read it is kind of like, yeah, you know, these days with a story like this kind of worship experience, kind of like a seeker-sensitive or like I'm looking for my favorite worship experience, like it's not about that at all. That's very profound. I love the section on the Old Testament. Just thought it was profound. And we could probably talk more about that for the rest of the podcast. But you talk about so many other things. I want to push the conversation forward. How then does the early church, you know, in some ways take up or draw into Israel's own close connection between faith and between work and worship? How did they inhabit that?

Cory B. Wilson: [00:32:44] Yeah, so one of the things that you see it early on is if you don't understand the Old Testament's understanding of offering a particularly first fruits, the practices of offering your first fruits, which again gets at the vulnerability thing, the fragility that Matt was talking about. Right. This is the first, that foretaste of hope for the future crop. But what happens if, you know, locusts come? What happens if, like, you know, there's another kind of like blood, right? You don't know. And so you're actually taking the first fruits, the best of what's there and offering that up to God. The early church picks up on that first fruits practice and there's more work to be done around why early Judaism, particularly from the Talmud on, downplays this notion of offering or sacrifice. But the early church picks up on it and sees Jesus as the mediator, as the sacrifice, but also our high priest who facilitates our offering of our first fruits. So what you have in the early church and you look at some of the early, some of the earliest books on liturgy are around worship that we have from the early church. And actually details like practices around the first fruits offering and how this could be a couple of things. One, often they were in urban settings, so it wouldn't just be the raw grain, it would be often transformed. Right. Products of craftsmen. So it would be maybe bread or cheese or wine. It wouldn't just be the raw products that are offered up.

Cory B. Wilson: [00:34:11] Right. So they but they use that first fruits offering as a paradigm for offering up the works of their hands. So, yeah, you're in a city now, you're not out of the field. But still, this first fruits at ritual practice is still creating the seamless relationship between your workplace and worship there. And then the culmination right of work, of worship and work is in the sanctuary. It's different, but not distinct. They're related. And so Sunday worship is the culmination of your week of worship. And they even pulled in through some of the you know, we mentioned the prophets and the critical eye of the prophets had about the integrity or the lack of integrity, lack of holiness of work and work offerings. The early church picks up on that as well and says certain kinds of professions, actually, that work is off limits. Certain kinds of, you know, offerings are off limits. So if you're an innkeeper and you're watering down your wine, right. That's not if you're a gladiator, there's certain things like the early church picks up on this first offering, but also the critical eye. That's only the best. And it can't be coming from injustice. We can't be offering coming from the work of an unjust on holy hands in the workplace. So those are two ways in which the early church continues to do that. And Matt has a I mean, you want to tell a story about the woman who offers the bread and. Laughs Yeah,

Matthew Kaemingk: [00:35:48] That's a fun one. That's a fun one. So if a couple of centuries later, this woman is is going to take communion from Pope Gregory the Great, and she she comes forward and the pope breaks the bread and hands it to her and and she looks down at the bread and she starts to laugh then and there's some curses disconcerting to all involved. And after after sort of things have calmed down, they ask her, why were you laughing when the Pope gave you the bread? She says, Well, I looked down at the bread and I, I realized that was the bread that I made in my little kitchen with my little oven. And what was so astounding to her was that her little kitchen, her hands, the feeble work of her hands might be handled by the pope, by the pope himself. And the pope might say this is the body of Christ, that her work is somehow participating is sometimes somehow a part of the greater work of God in Jesus. And this connection was so easy for her because the early church had this practice that everyone would bring the work of their hands to the church whether that be the fish, all its cheese tools, clothing, whatever they made, they would bring it to the church, give it to the deacons, or they might pile it up.

Matthew Kaemingk: [00:37:20] But some of it was distributed to the poor, someone to support the pastor. Others was actually used in the worship meal. And so that little story to me really grabs something that I feel is missing for us today on Sunday morning is this very real, tangible, physical element. Connection between the daily work in my kitchen, in my office, with my laptop and with the worship of God at the temple nursery, at the table, that we today experienced this disconnect between those two worlds. And we need to be surprised, like that woman was surprised that that our work is somehow a part of our daily mundane, ordinary work is somehow a part of. The extraordinary work of God in the world and in good worship in the early church actually helped people see that. And so what we're calling people to and in this day is how might we begin to repair that breach that's so core. So this is not like a new hip thing we're talking about here. This is when it comes to faith, work and worship. This is an ancient idea that we're trying to bring back.

Robert Covolo: [00:38:47] I love this. You know, oftentimes I think we go to church and we think, oh, we need to give some money to the church, you know, and it's a complete disconnect from actually, no. We need to show that our Monday to Friday is actually consummated in connecting the fruits of our hands to the work of God, and that the offering is actually if you're not maybe as a preacher because I'm a pastor, I would say if you're not giving your tithe or your first fruits, you're going to find it very difficult to know how what you're doing Monday through Friday is connected to the work of God in the world. And rather than like we need a new organ or, you know, we need new carpet in here. You know, it's a totally different mindset.

Matthew Kaemingk: [00:39:36] That's the first rule, right, actually, is that the Israelites believe that God didn't need anything, that their God wasn't hungry like the other gods, that God wasn't sitting there like, please feed me these bulls and cows. And I use that literally because that's how the other countries thought of it, that you, you fed your God grain and such because your God is hungry and he needs that. And if you do that, then he will give you things. But that's not the offering within the Israelite worldview. You give as a response to what God has given you. And really the process of offering is done so that you can relate to your goods and your wealth in a healthy way. It really has nothing to do with God or gods hunger. And so likewise today we think of the church offering as something we do for the church because we're generous and the church needs our money and the mission of God needs our money. But that's just not true. The primary thing of what's going on in the offering is we are being shaped. We are given the privilege to participate in God's economy, and that's just missing.

Robert Covolo: [00:40:54] Yeah, I love it. There's so much we could talk about. I'm already feeling a little sad because I know that there's just so much we could talk about. I do want to hit on a couple of things. One is, I know throughout your book you use global examples, which I thought was wonderful. I know, Cory, you you actually that's part of your title, the Church and Global Ministry. And man, I know that you have a real sensitivity to understanding how God is working globally. But why did you think it was important? I mean, I have some ideas, but I'd love to hear why do you think it was so important to learn from these global examples? And I think you pull in examples from Latin America and Africa and Asia. And maybe for our listeners, you could give an example of one of these global examples of how work and worship come together. And there may be an answer like, why is this important? Maybe the example will speak for itself.

Cory B. Wilson: [00:41:50] Yeah, Matt, think of some examples, I'm going to do a quick thing here. So one of the reasons why, Bob, to answer the first question, so I guess one example, there's a hymn from the Philippines and it's about this boy from the perspective of a little boy who's looking at his dad, who's, like, overworked to, like working at the factory all the time. His mom, who can't, you know, is barely working as well to kind of keep the family afloat. And it's also written for this cry of lament as this young son sees how work is dehumanizing both to his mom and to his dad. And there's even another hymn that talks about it's called "Call Me by My Name." And this is coming out of a factory experience where the workers are given a number. They're stripped of their name and given a number. And so, you know, this cry of this worship song for worshippers is like, no, I'm, I am deeply human. And even though my environment in my work environment is trying to dehumanize me or undermine my dignity, that God has a different perspective on me and that I have a different sense of myself. So worship, it gives me a sense of somebody-ness. Right. So the reason why I mean, that's one story. The reason why we thought it was so important is that we're doing all theology is contextual. It's coming out of a certain context.

Cory B. Wilson: [00:43:18] And Matt and I both have a particular church and cultural context. And so we try to, we can't. That's inescapable. It's not bad. Just is what it is. Right. And a lot of what we're diagnosing in the early chapters is we realize very contextual. We're speaking about modern mainstream Christianity in North America. Right. And so a lot of the maladies write our modern western, middle, upper class suburban problems that we're diagnosing. So if that's the problem, then why not look to ancient global, non Western perspective to see how are they engaging with scripture? How has the faith of Jesus been passed down and and deeply made its way into the soil and and the souls of so many people in other contexts throughout history and the world today? What do we have to learn from that? So it's to create a conversation, hopefully modeling the kind of theology that we all should be doing or should be living into, is that yes, this is where this is the faith that we've inherited from our parents. And it's helped us meet Jesus, but Jesus has met a lot of other people and a lot of different ways, and so how do we have a conversation? What can we learn? How may we be mutually enriched? What gifts do we have to give and receive? So this was two white reformed theologians trying to offer gifts and receive gifts and hopefully keep that conversation and exchange going.

Robert Covolo: [00:44:49] Yeah, I mean, I that's what I felt like. You know, so much of the faith and work movement oftentimes is applied towards creatives, professionals, but a majority of the work done in the world is not by creatives and professionals. It's done by people that are doing service industries are doing are laboring in certain, you know, think about the garment industry, which I know about or whatever. And I think that it it made it a full orbed it made it really full orbed and very touching stories that show, I think at a fundamental level, like even if we can't wash dishes to the glory of God or whatever, we're going to do, you know, some manual stuff in how are we going do these even, you know, so it connected it really well. And Matt, I don't know if you want to say something. If not, I'm happy to move on to begin. OK, well our time is is has come to and end. But I have one more question. Our listeners are primarily those that are in Southern California, those that are engaged in the academy, professors, we have creatives, we have people that are in the business sphere and accountants and all kinds of people tend to be professors, professionals, but across the board. So I just want to ask this Sunday, if I'm listening to this podcast right now and this Sunday, I'm thinking, OK, number one, I should have my pastor listen to this podcast and get this book or our worship leader. But what would you say to the person that's going to attend church the Sunday after listening to this podcast and they want to do a better job of bringing their working selves and their worshipping selves together?

Cory B. Wilson: [00:46:36] Yeah, so, yeah, it's a great question. I think one of the things my wife and I began to do is on the way to church, whether you're walking or driving or riding your bike, whatever it is when you're on your way to church, ask each other. I mean, if you have kids, maybe try to adapt the question for them, but say, what is it that I need to offer to God? Right. What from my week. Right. If if your kids are in school or if your workplace like what do I have to praise God for? What good things made me maybe joyful this week? What made me anxious? Right. What made me angry coming out of my work week? When you're driving to or however making your way to the sanctuary, rehearse that with the person you're with, or if you're by yourself in your own time as you're using that space from your from your doorway to the door of the church, rehearse those, call those to mind and say, I want to actively bring these into my response, my receiving and offering of worship to God. And one just quick example is a speech therapist that I interviewed about her experiences of work.

Cory B. Wilson: [00:47:43] And I asked her what gives her strength to do the hard work with stroke victims in a hospital every week. And she said without missing a beat, she said the benediction. And I said, well, tell me about that. And she said, well, I always have my patients in mind. And whenever their face comes to mind, I just say a prayer like God grant them healing grabbed me, get me wisdom on what kind of remedy or or treatment I can pursue with them. And so I just say a prayer and move on. But when it comes to the benediction, I see these faces of people I'm working with all week. And when I hear the pastor say, "May the grace of God be on you and through you, to whom all those God sends you," I hear God say to me, go out and serve them on my behalf. No one in her service told her to do that. She innately, intuitively did this. So granted, that's from someone in the service industry. Right. And the health care industry. Maybe you're not in the health care industry, but listeners, whoever you are, you have things that kept you anxious, things that you are giving you that ulcer or driving you to whatever may be going on within you that is keeping you up at night.

Cory B. Wilson: [00:48:54] That made you angry this last week, things that you're hopeful for, you're excited for this coming week. Don't set those aside. Call those to mind. And as you're singing the songs, as you're hearing scripture read or preached, allow those to linger, allow those to be held in space, right, call them intentionally, call them to mind, and you'll be surprised at how the spirit of God, who is really the final preacher and worship leader, what the spirit of God will do to speak, to make connections. Right. And there's an area of hiddenness where you're not experiencing God's power and presence in your life right. Allow that to come up and you're going to be surprised. You're going to sing that lyric of that song differently. You're going to hear a word of hope, you're going to hear a word of challenge differently from the sermon. But if you set those things aside, you leave them at the door of the church, you know, then you're actually undermining the offering up. That is, as you do that that is your offering, offering your life as a living sacrifice to God.

Robert Covolo: [00:49:56] Mm hmm. Excellent. Thanks, Cory. Matt, any parting any parting words?

Matthew Kaemingk: [00:50:00] Oh, man. That was so well said. I think just to sum it up, bring your work to God. He will transform, lift it up and redirect it. He is faithful and throughout scripture, we are encouraged not to come before God empty-handed, but to bring him the beauty and the brokenness that we experience, his yoke is easy, his burden is light. And so it's good news that we can be our full selves and we can bring our work to him. And yeah. Bob, thank you so much for having us. And yeah, we left a lot on the table, a lot of other things we could talk about. So maybe we're going to have to do a sequel here sometime and talk some more. You know, I think one thing we didn't get to talk about was actually what does it mean to bring worship into your work and how my workers begin to practice prayer in the workplace. How might they begin to practice the presence of God in the workplace? And that might be a fun thing for us to chat about some other time. But yeah, I'm so grateful for the Center for Faith and Work and all the work you guys are doing. And I know you guys just had a great conference and I pray rich blessings there for you, Bob. It's good to see you guys flourish so much.

Robert Covolo: [00:51:21] Thanks, Matt. Yeah, I'd love to do it again and maybe pick that up. And anyways, it's been great. Great just to see you guys and to connect and fun. Fun to to be able to do a podcast with two dear friends. So thanks again, Cory and Matt. And if you haven't already, you're going to want to pick up Work + Worship, reconnecting our labor and liturgy on Amazon, I'm sure. And you can get it that way. Again, thank you for listening today. And on behalf of the Center for Faith and Work Los Angeles, I just want to pray that you will continue to grow in your faith, that you might work harder lives under the Lord. And God bless you. Thanks, guys.